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Discussion Topic
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In this activity, you'll discuss your ideas about the poem "High Holy Days." Post a message that responds to one or more of the following questions:
- How would you characterize the speaker? Who is she? What's her attitude toward what she's describing and encountering over the course of the poem? Does her attitude or tone change at all?
- What's the purpose of including seemingly unnecessary, narrative details in the poem? These include references to the itchy suit the speaker wears, the yarmulke covering her father's bald spot, how her mother readjusts her skirt, etc. What does the speaker communicate by including such details?
As a follow-up posting, ask a question of your own or state whether you agree or disagree, and why, with a classmate's interpretation of the poem.
Click your reading guide to learn about motive and purpose and how they're relevant to these discussion questions.
Scoring
This discussion is worth a maximum of 15 points. You'll get 10 points for your first posting. Your instructor will give you another 5 points if you post a follow-up comment or question that furthers the discussion.
Original:
ReplyDeleteI would characterize the speaker as a child. She is wearing a wool winter suit and complained about how it “scratched” her. The characters appearance and description of her clothing imply that she is a child. Her thoughts also reveal the mind of a child. It seems as though she doesn’t fully comprehend yet exactly why she attends the synagogue or why she is even a Jew. As a result she finds herself watching everything around her, as opposed to paying attention to the actual service. The narrator must be a child because her mind wanders, for example, from the window, to the aisle, to a yarmulke. She has an inquisitive attitude to everything that she is observing. Her attitude and tone shifts from inquisitive to accepting, yet skeptical. The references she makes to religious events indicate that she was getting a grasp of the Jewish religion. She also begins to imagine her role as a Jew whether it is as a sacrifice or something else. However all of her “roles” share a commonality, which is service to God. As a Jew she is quite aware of her responsibilities yet is still unsure of how to approach them, considering the fact that she is still a child. During this visit to the temple she begins to ponder about her these responsibilities and how she should fulfill them.
Original:
ReplyDeleteOverall, the speaker's personality matures as the poem progresses. Her attitude changes constantly as well. The speaker begins by complaining about her clothing and the heat in the synagogue, acting childish, I guess one can say. As she changes the poem to a narrative, her ideas and views mature. At first, I thought it's because she's no longer describing herself and is looking through other's eyes, but I was wrong. She actually IS describing herself. She's making herself become the sacrificial animal, "the Chosen One", and Jonah. And these comparisons are all the same. The only downside of this change occurring is the fact that this girl looks down on herself and the rest of Jewish society. The last few lines of the poem makes it sound as if she see herself "thrown out onto the street" as if she were trash.
To Ellysa:
ReplyDeleteHonestly, even though I said she started out immature, I never really thought of the possibility that the speaker could be a child. Obviously she's young because she's in a synagogue with her parents, but not a little girl.
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ReplyDeleteOriginal: The speaker is a young girl that sheds her naivety throughout the poem and emerges with a sense of religious pride and duty. Her tone changes from one of confusion to one of confidence and maturity. Although she is passionate about her religion and her culture, her attitude changes throughout the poem because she is unsure of what she is feeling. In a way, she is forming her identity and views on life. As the speaker matures, or grows, throughout the poem, her love and defense for her religion become stronger.
ReplyDeleteTo Christian: Although the speaker may believe that the Jewish people and their religion are not respected enough in society, I do not agree that the speaker looks down on herself and the rest of the Jewish society. She has pride in her religion and wants to lead her people.
ReplyDeleteTo Ellysa: I believe that the speaker included the references to religion to show how unsure she was of her role in life regarding her religion, since the narrative details exhibit some form of discomfort or coverage.
To Christian:
ReplyDeleteI agree with your point, maybe she is not actually a child. I should clarify a little that when I say child I mean she is probably in that awkward stage of childhood, not necessarily a five year old, but more along the age of a thirteen year old. Her mindset during the service at the synagogue shows that she not an adult. I think that during the service she transitioned from that childlike viewpoint into a perspective that encompasses more mature thoughts. By the end of poem, she is leaving the synagogue after a heartfelt service that challenged her thinking and encouraged her to embrace her religion. I think that the narrator references the “Jew-hating world” because it shows the reader the extent to which her mind developed from simple ideas she has learned in her religion, to applying them in her everyday life. For example, in the beginning of the poem she is somewhat preoccupied with the size of her suit. As the poem progresses she makes references to momentous Jewish events including the Night of the Broken Glass. Since the Book of Jonah is read in its entirety on Yon Kippur, it is no surprise that she leaves the synagogue with the image of Jonah and the whale, comparing it to the life she must live as a Jew. I don’t think this means that she looks down upon herself. Rather maybe this was a moment it which she was on her way home and finally observed a fact that was always there that she never noticed before. The fact that she resides in “the Jew-hating world”.
The speaker of the poem is at first, young and naive, however, as the poem continues, the speaker begins to gain maturity and understanding, demonstrating that she is older in age. In the beginning of the poem, the speaker fiddles with her clothing, complaining that it “scratches” her. She is immature at first and her only concerns are the ones in which she is the center of, however, as the story progresses, she realizes that there are problems and issues that go beyond her comprehension and that affect her. By the end of the poem, she begins to understand life and the challenges that she is faced with. The poem also shows the speaker’s concerns over herself and her place in society. At first the speaker is concerned with sacrifice, believing that sacrifice is the key to religious devotion, she then becomes concerned with becoming “the Chosen One” and by the end of the poem she compares her situation to that of Jonah and the whale. The purpose of including seemingly unnecessary, narrative details in the poem was to enhance the imagery and emotion. However, usually in narratives intricate details are used for imagery and in poems vague references and metaphors enhance the imagery without overstating the details. The author included a large amount of details in order to create a sense of pathos in the reader.
ReplyDeleteTo Sherifa:
ReplyDeleteI also agree with you in that, she does not look down upon herself and religion. Although it is not stated in the poem, I believe that she is prideful of her religion and she is beginning to really understand herself and gain a true sense of identity. I also agree that her tone changes from confusion to maturity; however, I do not see the confidence. I believe that it is not truly confidence but a mask.
I would describe the main character as a young adult, a child who is a preteen but is mature beyond her age. She knows and understands the numerous activities around her, and for many moments in time she pretends that the reality she lives in does not exist. She realizes that many people like her, who follow her religion of Judaism is under the scrutiny of a tyrant and a dictator who is taking the lives of innocent people for no apparent reason. Her attitude to most of the activities around her is a solemn one where is greatly bothered by the horrendous activities she has knowledge about. Her mood is one of sadness and grief in the sense that her reality is falling apart. The life she once knew is now crumbling beneath her and she wishes it was a dream. This feeling is implied in the last few lines of the poem
ReplyDeleteIn Response to Sherifa,
ReplyDeleteI totally agree with your statement that the main character gains self-pride and confidence when it comes to her religion. She is extremely capable of understanding what is occurring around her and she is aware of the circumstances and her surroundings. I believe that she is not as confident as she seems, because she is yet an adolescent and she may not have a valor that an adult may have but on the other hand she may surpass that level of courage. Given the situation she is in, her actions and way of dealing with the activities around her are extraordinary.
Original: I too agree that as the poem goes on, the narrator somewhat matures or accepts reality. In the beginning of the poem, the girl is characterized as an irritated child. As she lacks the ability to pay attention to the religious ceremonies fully, one would think she is too young to really understand them. For example, toward the beginning of the poem the narrator describes her wool winter sweater scratching her. Yet, as the poem goes on she begins to slowly describe the religious objects such as "the two scrolls of the Torah." The girl continues to mature as a Jewish follower as she begins to question her purpose as a Jewish girl. The poem ends with the girl, now grown, accepting society’s view of the Jewish population. Overall, I feel the poem represents a child’s development in the Jewish religion. The girl goes from a tone of ignorant to skeptical to acceptance.
ReplyDeleteTo Sherifa:
ReplyDeleteI completely concur! If I may quote you, I feel as though the narrator does go from confused to confident throughout the poem. As the narrator gains knowledge of Judiasm she becomes stronger in her faith , and is able to disregaurd negative views of society.
Original:
ReplyDeleteI would characterize the speaker as a confused youth who, over the course of the narrative, develops her faith in her religion. In the beginning of the poem, the narrator feels bored, and even a bit out of place in the synagogue, but as the poem progresses, the narrator begins to feel a greater sense of pride in her religion, and comes out of the poem with a profound understanding of her religion and her place in it, as well as how accepting (or lack thereof) the world is of her religion.
To Christian:
ReplyDeleteI too believe that the narrator is depicting herself throuhg these allusions to religious figures. She undergoes this evolution from a sacrifice to a Chosen One to a redeemed soul, and through this process her faith in her religion grows stronger.
Well, I think the speaker is immature and innocent. She has a very naive tone and is accepting and skeptical as a child would be towards her surroundings. Towards the end, she establishes herself as Jewish by relating to the world's perception of Jewish people.
ReplyDeleteTo: Maggie
ReplyDeleteI agree with what you typed about her accepting the Jewish role and her faith in her religion.
The speaker seems confused during the outset of the poem, unsure about why she was at the synagogue, and even a bit uncomfortable. However she undergoes a spiritual growth as she becomes someone who's unsure of her place to a chosen one. The seemingly unnecessary details help emphasize how at first, she feels out of place where she is, observing the surroundings with scattered thoughts like a bored kid. By the end, however, she has a greater pride and feeling of spiritual growth but is still unsure if it's something that will help her.
ReplyDeleteTo Maggie: Wow, I didn't pick up on the whole "accepting reality" thing, oddly enough, that was a great point. I completely agree, along with the point that, as the poem goes on her descriptions of miscellaneous objects goes from normal to religious.
ReplyDeleteOriginal:
ReplyDeleteI believe that the main character or the speaker in the poem is an adolescent on the brink of adulthood. I believe that the incident in the poem shows the transition from childhood to adulthood for the speaker. One can tell that the speaker is a child because she is only concerned about the 'scratchiness' of her 'wool sweater'. However, as the poem progresses, the speaker begins to become more aware of her surroundings and the reality of the world around her. She is introduced to the prejudice subjected towards Judaism and in a way, she vows never to be ignorant of the hatred towards her religion ever again. In fact, she wants to be a sacrifice for her religion in order to abolish the anti-Semitism apparent in the world. This is the stepping stone where she becomes an adult, because she has left the idealized world of childhood and entered the reality of the world.
To Shahnaj:
ReplyDeleteWhile I agree with you on the idea that the speaker is naive and immature in the beginning, I believe that she becomes more mature and more aware of her surroundings as the poem progresses. I think that it is too simplistic to just characterize the speaker as immature and naive without acknowledging the fact that she does change in the poem, and that is the reason behind the recording of the incident in the first place.
The speaker sounds like a teenager, who is chosen for a task (seems like chosen for a special task relating to the jewish religion) and doesn't think she is fit for the task. over the course of the poem she is afraid and questioning, why her out of all people? she doesn't have anything to offer? but towards the end of the reading she goes from being confused to almost viewing her chosen one status as almost a curse, one that no one will be able to fulfill, with the newfound hatred of societies expectations. the seemingly unnecessary information was put into the reading to set the scene and visualize the moment alongside the main character. through the use of the other details, shows how uneasy everyone was during this time and how awkward the moment was for both her and her parents.
ReplyDeleteTo Jasbir:
ReplyDeleteI agree with your analysis of the reading, although i did not dig as deep into the reading as you did, i could see how you were able to draw your conclusions. i understand the unnecessary details that were written in the reading, it was used to not only set the scene but show her insecurities.
I would characterize the speaker as a young teenage girl. She is confused about the events that are happening around her. I feel like she somehow tries to develop faith in her religion. She describes, step by step, actions and expressions of people that are surrounding her at the synagogue. As the poem progresses, the speaker is more understanding of what the Jewish religion is about. As she acknowledges her religion, she also gains pride, and comes to understanding that not everyone feels the same way as she does.
ReplyDeleteTo Yan:
ReplyDeleteI agree with you about the mixed feelings of the speaker in the beginning of the story and how those feelings change as the poem progresses. I also agree that she has a greater pride and feeling of spiritual growth at the end of the poem. In order to show that she expresses detailed description of her surroundings but she is still not completely sure about how the whole concept of religion will affect her and her future.
Original:
ReplyDeleteHonestly, I would characterize the speaker as a young child who undergoes a transition in maturity and attitude. Like Jasbir stated, she is a child on the brink of adulthood and her change in tone and perspective as the poem goes on conveys this. When the narrator speakers of herself as a sacrificial animal she is depicting that her situation is extremely severe and a sacrifice to the Lord in order to save her people. She questions her aptness for this role not fully comprehending how the minor and frail can get through great obstacles. She goes through a identity shift after coming to realization with this, and compares herself with Jonah being swallowed and spit back by a whale. When she speaks of this it portrays a bigger message; she is comparing herself to being thrown back into the world where many hate her and her people, even if she had done a great deed. These identity shifts show a change of optimism and desperation within the narrator. It shows her aspiration and maturity to be a hero for her people, and change in her throughout the course of the poem.
To Paulina:
ReplyDeleteI concur that the narrator is bewildered in terms of the events that are transpiring around her. She questions her aptness when she considers saving her people because she doesn't really understand how someone so small like her can accomplish such a great deed. Similar to what I stated above about her comparing herself to Jonah and thinking of being thrown back into a world where many people hate her.
I believe the speakers personality matures and her attitude also changes through out the poem. The speaker is a bit childish because she starts off complaining about her clothing and the heat in the synagogue. The change is shown when she describes herself as the sacrificial animal, "the Chosen One", and Jonah. And these comparisons are all the same. The bad part is that she looks down on herself and the rest of Jewish society.
ReplyDeleteTo Paulina:
ReplyDeleteI agree with your perception of the narrator and I do feel that she gains pride and begins to understand that not everyone feels the same way as she does.
Original:
ReplyDeleteI would characterize the narrator as a child who evolves into a hopeful individual. At first she is noticing little details about everything, like the satin jackets and her mother rearranging her skirt everytime she stands. However, she sits and began to ponder about God and the society she live in. She calls herself a sacrificial animal and the chosen one because she feels as if its her duty to fight and take any action that needs to be taken in order to make sure that her and her people arent living in the perils that fall upon them as Jewish people. Unfortunately, she felt like Jonah and was put right back into the "Jew Hating World" she lived in.
To Marium,
ReplyDeleteI agree when you stated that she matures through the progression of the poem. Once her attitude began to shift and she viewed herself as a sacrificial animal, the chosen one, and Jonah, it was apparent that she no longer viewed everything as a child. However, I do not see how she looked down upon herself.
I would characterize the speaker as an older woman looking back at her younger years, as the poem is told in her on point of view. The poem starts out almost like a memoir, but later means something much more. The character grows with the poem, as the poem gets longer, the characters "tone" matures. Producing an almost suprising finish.
ReplyDeleteI agree with Sherifa B. She does develop a sense of protection and love for her religion by the end of the poem. However, do you think that was her thinking process as a child to begin with? I believe the poem was written not only as a reflection on her childhood coorelation to her religion, but how she percepts it today.
ReplyDeleteOriginal: High Holy Days depicted the transition of a young girl into a woman who had regained confidence and strength in her religion. A woman who realizes her possible task as a messenger or sacrifice. The young girl is mesmerized and complaining about immaterial things for instance when she becomes cognizant of the fact that her coat's material scratched her. The young girl also noticed insignificant details in the synagogue. The girl gradually realizes through spiritual allegories that she is considered more than just bones and flesh.
ReplyDeleteTo Jasbir: I agree with the statement that the main character has left her former idea of an idealized world and retreated to a place where she accepts her religion and is cognizant of the hatred around her and her place in the world.
ReplyDeleteHigh Holy Days shows a young girl that has the desire to uplift the people of her religion, the Jews. She does not have an understanding of why the hatred of her people exists. This young girl has the urge to put an end to the suffering that her people are enduring. However, while that feeling is going on i do not feel as if she is fully grasping why she has been placed in the situation she has been placed in, meaning not only being Jewish, but also partaking in the actions that Jews do. It is evident that she has the desire to help her people because she constantly places herself in events of the bible, which reflect that. First she connects herself to being a sacrifice when she has her nose bleed. By doing this she is expressing the desire to be a sacrifice for her people, to give herself for their enhancement and uprising. Then she goes on to speak about being "the chosen one." This shows her desire to be the chosen one, to be the one God wants to deliver her people from their suffering. However, her recount of small details of the synagogue shows that she does not fully understand her placement into either the Jewish faith or attendance at the synagogue.
ReplyDeleteLater on in the poem the young girl seems to have lost faith that the situation of her people can be corrected. By the end of the poem she realizes that the hatred around her is real and is massive and she seems to get this feeling as if she can not save her people or change what is happening
I see the girl as someone who appreciates her religion for what it is, and believes she indeed has a calling, but is too distracted by society's negative feelings towards her religion. Nonetheless, as the poem progresses, she begins to accept the fact that this something she has no choice but to deal with the hostility and hatred, and do what she's called to do. In the first stanza she introduces to us the discomfort she feels being a Jew, through describing the large, hot, itchy suit that she has to wear. Like her role as a Jew in her society, she is placed in a situation that she has no choice but to overcome (she HAS to wear the jacket, she HAS to adhere to her calling). In the following stanzas she shows admonishment and understanding of her religion by describing processes in the synagogue, and referring to aspects of royalty and beauty. By the end of the poem, when she refers to Jonah and the whale, she's realizing that she really has a purpose to fulfill, despite all circumstances.
ReplyDeleteI agree with everyone in the sense that this is definitely a girl who has matured mentally, and made an overall transition of perspective on taking her place and doing what she was called to do.
ReplyDeleteI agree with you on your statement that the main character grows with the poem. I also agree that her tone matures leading to a surprising finish. At the beginning of the poem the main character seems very hopeful. She seems to have this unrelentless desire to save her people, to sacrifice herself in order to better them and end their suffering. However, towards the end of the poem the feeling of her desire to be a hero seems to fade. She seems to be hit with the harsh reality of the hatred that is apparent in the world for Jews. Which is suprising because she shifts from a hopeful young indiviual, to a more mature individual that loses hope.
ReplyDeleteIn the poem the narrator makes the gradual transition from sounding nieve, and childish to sounding wise and mature.In the beginning of the peom, her thoughts and opinions of the people were judgmental and pompus.Her comments were brough from ignorence and lock of knowledge of the culture of the religion.As she spends more time, her thoughts involved into intellegent opinions of the people that were filled with compashion and understandance.
ReplyDeleteIncluding the seemingly simple details puts the narrator into context. At first she is a child, by the end of the poem the details are very complex and include deeply embedded ideas that the beginning of the poem lacked. She entwines the idea of the "Jew Hating-World" throughout the poem, showing her deep contention to the religion through the suffering that she not only experienced herself, but also that the "Jews" have historically as a race. The details all amount of the over all idea that she is constantly trying to tell the reader. Over all the vocabulary and details helps so the growth of her maturity from the child, as she remembers the memory, to the adult she is, as realizes that it was only a memory.
ReplyDeleteLike Shanice, I agree with the general consensus that the author has emotionally matured over the course of the poem, there was definitely an over all transition that occurred when she reminisced on that time period in her life.
ReplyDeleteOriginal: The speaker appears to go through a transformation throughout the poem. As the poem progresses, she matures both in her thoughts and interpretation of what is going on around her. It seems as though initially she is lost in a sea of uncertainty and in the midst of the poem she is attempting to find herself.
ReplyDeleteTo Alexandria: I love they way you tied in her memory with her childhood and being an adult now. I didn't exactly notice that correlation before and now it is pretty clear.
ReplyDeleteThe speaker is definitely child, she seems confused, as the poems theme is that of faith and doubt. As the poem begins the narrator questions her faith and her religion with rhetorical questions and subtle hints. But as the poem progresses she begins to connect to her faith, she begins to connect to the holocaust. She does not connect to the temple, the books, the religion, but rather her people. She begins to talk about the "Jew-Hating" world and her hatred for them. This is what connects her to her faith, the holocaust.
ReplyDeleteTJ: I did not think of the narrator as an older woman, but now that you say it, there is some explanation. The narrator tone progresses as to more mature, as the poem progresses. She becomes more aware of her religion and faithful, which can be attributed to her older age.
ReplyDeleteI would characterize the speaker as being a Jewish child who is very knowledgeable. She has a very critical attitude, examining each thing she sees and describing it with great detail. Her tone changes from observational to scrutinizing. We can see this from the way that she describes the Jew-hating world.
ReplyDeleteI believe the narrator was a young Jewish girl who has just began to analyze her faith and opinions towards her religion. It is very evident that she feels a sense of responsibility towards her religion and towards the middle she begins to demonstrate her pride and uncertainty. It is clear that she analyzes everything she sees and at some points we find her taking her observations to a new level by visualizing herself as the chosen one. By the end of the passage we find that her pride in her religion turned into that of indifference towards the world around her and their distaste towards her religion when she refers to the "Jew-hating world."
ReplyDeleteJust gotta say thanks to y'all for helping me understand my own thoughts and put them into words.
ReplyDelete